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michieldotv 2 hours ago [-]
I get that in the West we are generally conceiving at a later stage in life than before, and that this does not improve odds of conception. However, with fertility, just as with so many things, we are individualising the problem. Here too the focus is on age. Just get kids when you're younger! What's the big deal.
Let's set aside that there are deeper sociological reasons on why young people start with kids later in life. We are not giving enough weight to all of the pollutants that we are exposed to in society, and how they affect our bodies, health and lives.
I heard Dr. Shanna Swan talk recently about the effects of hormone disrupting chemicals on (male) infertility. It's dire stuff really.
She was on the podcast promoting a recent Netflix documentary called The Plastic Detox in which they intervene in couple's lifestyles to reduce the amount of plastics and the hormone disrupting chemicals (bisphenols, phthalates, etc) they are exposed to. I highly recommend it.
There's over 70 different hormones in the human body regulating all kinds of biological functions. Fertility is only one aspect but think about the adverse effects these chemicals might be having on body weight, our sleep cycle, blood pressure, stress, libido, etc. We are prescribed drugs for related ailments at record rates. Maybe we should take a step back and treat less and prevent more.
danduma 4 hours ago [-]
The website is great!
Many of my friends have gone through IVF and still I was surprised by some weird parts of the story.
For example: "I was stabbed with 932 needles" and when you tap you find out "because I wanted to improve my odds, I went to 31 acupuncture appointments, where 687 needles pierced my underbelly, legs and head".
It is clearly established that acupuncture is placebo, but beyond whether this placebo might actually improve the odds (highly disputed), it is an elective alternative procedure with unclear benefit, not part of a standard IVF journey.
I understand the story is a very personal one, but it would be good to remember it isn't necessarily representative of most people's experience.
velavar 3 hours ago [-]
It might very well be placebo but it helped me deeply and I can see why women that want to give it their all would try it (and that's why I don't begrudge her counting those jabs).
If it helps anyone - my first cycle was without acupuncture and I barely got 4 eggs out of it. I underwent acupuncture for 3 months before my second cycle and that got me 12 eggs.
When each cycle costs about 30k USD, a lot of women with low amh, egg quality or ovarian reserve would try anything to help tweak the odds!
slavik81 3 hours ago [-]
The total number might be a little out there due to her non-medical treatments, but the general sentiment is accurate for IVF. My wife filled up an entire sharps box with the injections she needed to take and that was with success on the first try of the first round (which is very rare).
As someone who is a bit squeamish around needles, I don't know if I could have done what she did.
aozgaa 2 hours ago [-]
> that was with success on the first try of the first round (which is very rare).
This very much depends on the patient history (age, cause of infertility, …) and the clinic. Live births per intended retrieval can vary from 10%-60% conditional on the above.
slavik81 1 hours ago [-]
In our case, it was suggested that the first transfer of the first cycle had a 15% chance of success. Whether that's "very rare" is perhaps a matter of perspective. It was low enough we assumed it would be a failure and we were surprised when it succeeded, but to a doctor it's a frequent occurrence.
systemsweird 4 hours ago [-]
Actually acupuncture has some studied physiological effects. One is nervous system mediated via the release of endorphins and then a later regulatory rebound which can have an anti inflammatory effect. I think low dose naltrexone has a somewhat similar method of action. I might have the details a bit off but the studies definitely exist if you want to research it. There are even some compounds in coffee (some of the bitter compounds not the caffeine) that have a very mild effect that works in a similar way.
Personally I’m not a fan of acupuncture and I suspect any nervous system benefits from acupuncture would be far outweighed from those of regular exercise. But maybe for people with chronic pain or other issues it could be useful.
fecal_henge 3 hours ago [-]
For a multiple IVF treatment case (a fancy hospital might have 40% cycle to birth rate remember) it would not be unusual to have ~100 actual injections.
bsder 3 hours ago [-]
In yet another great cosmic irony, one of the things that is notorious for making it difficult for a woman to get pregnant is the stress of trying to get pregnant.
Placebo or not, anything which reduces the stress of the mother-to-be can be extremely helpful.
Sol- 2 hours ago [-]
Maybe countries could tackle such problems twofold:
- first, implement a nationwide social freezing program, where women in their 20s are offered to freeze their eggs at a young age for free. Such a large-scale program would probably also improve the tech and might make egg collection less intrusive.
- combined with this program, let the women who freeze their eggs opt-in into an egg donation program, where some of their eggs can be used by women with fertility problems
But as with many things fertility, seems that modern states simply do not have the capacity to seriously try anything. Who knows why that is.
CamelCaseName 5 hours ago [-]
Super cool site design, I'll have to go back and look at all the other stories.
I didn't realize IVF was such a brutal process. 932 needles sounds like insanity, not to mention everything else. I'll carry a lot more compassion for those going through IVF going forward, and a lot more excitement for those able to concieve naturally.
notpushkin 4 hours ago [-]
687 of those are acupuncture, a form of alternative medicine. So it might help on a psychological level, but certainly not a requirement for IVF.
That said, 245 is still a big number. 79 blood samples and 166 hormone injections.
tasuki 1 hours ago [-]
The cure for this is spending an afternoon volunteering in a kindergarden.
> There were the 7 a.m. doctor’s appointments before work; the dozens of days working from home in order to take all my medications; and the many times I reshuffled my travel plans.
Yes I mean just wait until you have kids. It's gonna get tougher.
incognito_robot 3 hours ago [-]
Beautiful but heart breaking website. I genuinely hope the author will be successful in starting a family.
My partner and I are currently going through a surrogacy process, and it's been a brutal multi year project that has had numerous setbacks. At this point we are just white knuckling our way forward.
I'm glad we as a society have these options available for those that need them, but man is it hard going through these processes.
hydrox24 4 hours ago [-]
This is a beautifully designed website. But I also think it's quite... problematic that the child's journey begins with the egg, as if the unfertilized egg is the child — and skips any mention of the sperm and the father.
It feels like this site is almost erasing the father from the IVF process.
randyrand 3 hours ago [-]
Perhaps it was a sperm donor? There doesn’t necessarily have to be a traditional father.
gitowiec 2 hours ago [-]
The website looks like copied from Monument Valley games
ivraatiems 4 hours ago [-]
Another good look at what IVF is really like, albeit with a really dark tinge that is not likely true in the vast majority of cases, is The Retrievals[0]. I recommend the podcast version.
What I find most incredible about it is the number of women who experienced immensely painful procedures while conscious multiple times, and went back again and again, in order to have a child. And few of them, if any, regret it.
It is simultaneously one of the most impressive feats of modern science, and one of the most unfair burdens put on any section of the populace, that they were able to, and had to.
I am a husband in an infertile pair which even needs surrogacy, so it is a horrendous journey. We've had 6 unsuccessful transfers so far - on average less than 1 a year (we have been trying since 2019), mostly on behalf of the surrogate mothers deciding to skedaddle randomly during the process. Although Covid didn't help either.
My wife regularly observes that this hell of a journey looks more taxing on me than her. Which is probably true.
This process is hard on the fathers-to-be as well. We do exist, we want to have kids, we are heartbroken each time as well. We also have to be careful not to hurt our wives' feelings when expressing our grief and sorrow.
abc123abc123 1 hours ago [-]
Amen! As so often in western society, men have no value at best, and are horrible monsters at worst. No one cares about the male part in these situations, which is a shame. But carry on, I will pray that you will succeed!
anovikov 2 hours ago [-]
Why not just use a surrogate instead? That's what every one of my friends who faced infertility, did.
retrac98 55 minutes ago [-]
A few reasons I can think of, having been through IVF twice now:
- Capability. Many couples are perfectly capable of carrying a pregnancy, they’re just having trouble conceiving.
- Cost. Surrogacy in a lot of countries is very expensive compared to IVF. Where I live in the UK, IVF is free on the NHS, or ~£8,000-£10,000 a round privately. Surrogacy can be £20,000 to £100,000 (or more), depending on the arrangement.
- Legal issues. Again, in the UK the surrogate mother is the legal mother of the child at birth.
- Availability. Finding a surrogate can be very hard, especially in countries (like the UK) where commercial surrogacy is illegal. People go use surrogates abroad instead, which has its own range of issues (read up on Ukraine).
- Ethical barriers. Using a surrogate involves issues of bodily autonomy. You can’t stop your surrogate smoking or drinking while pregnant, for example.
- Emotional barriers. Emotionally, motherhood starts at conception. Most mothers do not want to skip those 9 months of bonding they have with their baby prior to it being born.
chaostheory 3 hours ago [-]
On a related note, this is becoming a more common issue worldwide. Almost every country, even developing ones, are experiencing below replenishment birthrates. Only a few countries are spared in Central Africa, though not sure how long that will last.
Let's set aside that there are deeper sociological reasons on why young people start with kids later in life. We are not giving enough weight to all of the pollutants that we are exposed to in society, and how they affect our bodies, health and lives.
I heard Dr. Shanna Swan talk recently about the effects of hormone disrupting chemicals on (male) infertility. It's dire stuff really.
She was on the podcast promoting a recent Netflix documentary called The Plastic Detox in which they intervene in couple's lifestyles to reduce the amount of plastics and the hormone disrupting chemicals (bisphenols, phthalates, etc) they are exposed to. I highly recommend it.
There's over 70 different hormones in the human body regulating all kinds of biological functions. Fertility is only one aspect but think about the adverse effects these chemicals might be having on body weight, our sleep cycle, blood pressure, stress, libido, etc. We are prescribed drugs for related ailments at record rates. Maybe we should take a step back and treat less and prevent more.
Many of my friends have gone through IVF and still I was surprised by some weird parts of the story.
For example: "I was stabbed with 932 needles" and when you tap you find out "because I wanted to improve my odds, I went to 31 acupuncture appointments, where 687 needles pierced my underbelly, legs and head".
It is clearly established that acupuncture is placebo, but beyond whether this placebo might actually improve the odds (highly disputed), it is an elective alternative procedure with unclear benefit, not part of a standard IVF journey.
I understand the story is a very personal one, but it would be good to remember it isn't necessarily representative of most people's experience.
When each cycle costs about 30k USD, a lot of women with low amh, egg quality or ovarian reserve would try anything to help tweak the odds!
As someone who is a bit squeamish around needles, I don't know if I could have done what she did.
This very much depends on the patient history (age, cause of infertility, …) and the clinic. Live births per intended retrieval can vary from 10%-60% conditional on the above.
Personally I’m not a fan of acupuncture and I suspect any nervous system benefits from acupuncture would be far outweighed from those of regular exercise. But maybe for people with chronic pain or other issues it could be useful.
Placebo or not, anything which reduces the stress of the mother-to-be can be extremely helpful.
- first, implement a nationwide social freezing program, where women in their 20s are offered to freeze their eggs at a young age for free. Such a large-scale program would probably also improve the tech and might make egg collection less intrusive.
- combined with this program, let the women who freeze their eggs opt-in into an egg donation program, where some of their eggs can be used by women with fertility problems
But as with many things fertility, seems that modern states simply do not have the capacity to seriously try anything. Who knows why that is.
I didn't realize IVF was such a brutal process. 932 needles sounds like insanity, not to mention everything else. I'll carry a lot more compassion for those going through IVF going forward, and a lot more excitement for those able to concieve naturally.
That said, 245 is still a big number. 79 blood samples and 166 hormone injections.
> There were the 7 a.m. doctor’s appointments before work; the dozens of days working from home in order to take all my medications; and the many times I reshuffled my travel plans.
Yes I mean just wait until you have kids. It's gonna get tougher.
My partner and I are currently going through a surrogacy process, and it's been a brutal multi year project that has had numerous setbacks. At this point we are just white knuckling our way forward.
I'm glad we as a society have these options available for those that need them, but man is it hard going through these processes.
It feels like this site is almost erasing the father from the IVF process.
What I find most incredible about it is the number of women who experienced immensely painful procedures while conscious multiple times, and went back again and again, in order to have a child. And few of them, if any, regret it.
It is simultaneously one of the most impressive feats of modern science, and one of the most unfair burdens put on any section of the populace, that they were able to, and had to.
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-retrievals
My wife regularly observes that this hell of a journey looks more taxing on me than her. Which is probably true.
This process is hard on the fathers-to-be as well. We do exist, we want to have kids, we are heartbroken each time as well. We also have to be careful not to hurt our wives' feelings when expressing our grief and sorrow.
- Capability. Many couples are perfectly capable of carrying a pregnancy, they’re just having trouble conceiving.
- Cost. Surrogacy in a lot of countries is very expensive compared to IVF. Where I live in the UK, IVF is free on the NHS, or ~£8,000-£10,000 a round privately. Surrogacy can be £20,000 to £100,000 (or more), depending on the arrangement.
- Legal issues. Again, in the UK the surrogate mother is the legal mother of the child at birth.
- Availability. Finding a surrogate can be very hard, especially in countries (like the UK) where commercial surrogacy is illegal. People go use surrogates abroad instead, which has its own range of issues (read up on Ukraine).
- Ethical barriers. Using a surrogate involves issues of bodily autonomy. You can’t stop your surrogate smoking or drinking while pregnant, for example.
- Emotional barriers. Emotionally, motherhood starts at conception. Most mothers do not want to skip those 9 months of bonding they have with their baby prior to it being born.
https://www.imf.org/en/publications/fandd/issues/series/anal...
https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v66n4/v66n4p37.html
https://www.newsweek.com/americas-population-time-bomb-18987...
IVF is also no longer something that's only for older women. Younger couples from both sexes are starting to need it.
https://tulipivf.com/news/detail/397
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/4727738-people-need-i...